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welcome back to type a unhinged the podcast for the architects of order and the masters of chaos

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all right we talk a lot on the show about the grit it takes to build a career

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but today's guest is the literal blueprint for it i'm so excited to be joined by kayla brown

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director of customer life cycle at hibbit kayla and i go back way back to august

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at e-tail boston where we survived the panel gauntlet together we were paired up for both a

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crm and an ai session and what struck me immediately besides her incredible southern charm

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was her human first approach to something that was so important to her

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very intimidating ai tech she isn't just using ai she's leading her team through the adoption of it

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with a lot of grace and a lot of strategy kayla it's so good to see you again i've been following

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your work with movable inc advisory boards too and i'm dying to dive into how you balance that

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high level strategy and the day-to-day reality of retail how are you doing today i'm doing great

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thank you guys so much for having me on here i'm excited to chat and talk through um ai and

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how i'm type a and how that impacts things perfect fit yeah do you want to do a quick little intro

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uh other than what i've said is there anything you want to add to that share with our listeners

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yeah so i'm the director of customer life cycle like you said at hibbit i'm extremely type a which

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helped out a lot with my position um i am a huge huge strategy person and a um list checker offer

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love a list. But I've been with Himmit for about eight years now, started as the email marketing

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specialist and just kind of worked my way up. And now I have the pleasure of leading the retention,

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growth, and brand marketing team. So that is inclusive of email, mobile, paid media, affiliates,

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gift cards, and our CRM loyalty program. So just a few things.

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A few things. Check, check, check. Sounds about right for a typical type A.

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Yes. Also, the task checker offer hit home for me. Di and I talk about that a lot. And I think

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in one of our previous episodes, we even talked about how sometimes we will add things to our

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to-do list, even though they just got done, just so we could have like the satisfaction of checking

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it off or hearing the ding. Oh my God, that's my favorite thing to do. I love that.

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Same. Yes. All right. Let's start off with our connection. So,

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Kayla, we shared the stage at Boston and got to see each other West Coast at E-Tail Palm Springs.

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In the spirit of type A unhinged, what is the one thing about the conference circuit

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that secretly drives you crazy? And how do you optimize your schedule to survive

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the multiple days of a conference? Yeah, honestly, it is the can we grab 15

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minutes message that hits my LinkedIn inbox at like 10 a.m. on day two. I mean, it's great.

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People think it's great. It's great. It's great. It's great. It's great. It's great. It's great.

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They're being casual and it's I love a good coffee. But my type A brain has had my conference

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calendar locked and color loaded, color coded for like three weeks at this point, minimum three

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weeks. So it's just kind of tough, like when you're managing multiple channels and then you're

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attending a conference and you've still got your day to day work going on. A quick coffee,

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especially the last minute one, can turn into a domino that knocks like over so many other

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dominoes. And then all of a sudden, a high priority meeting or a session that I really

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need to attend to gets pushed. And it just really impacts that. So the way I really survive that

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is I treat it like a product launch, like my whole conference schedules, like a product launch.

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I have transition blocks. I have like my office hours. I have everything kind of timed down to

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the minute so that by the time I land, like honestly, anything added last minute is a no

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for right now for me.

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And that's really just to protect my energy so I can stay present at the conference.

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I need to learn from you. I'm really bad at saying no sometimes. So yeah, sometimes I end up

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overscheduling myself, even though it is all blocked and whatever. A conversation is like

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too good at a booth or I run into a random person who's part of a brand and have a really good

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convo and all of a sudden I'm 10 minutes late to something and it's the transition time. That's

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the key there, I think.

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That's the key.

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That's the key. It can be really hard. That's why I purposely try to block in some transition

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blocks and just kind of like last minute blocks where I know something's going to come up and

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I'm going to need that like 30 minutes that day.

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I think it was literally our last episode. Our last guest was talking to us about,

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I always get this wrong, Pomodoro timers?

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Pomodoro timer. Yep.

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Okay. Well, Dai just got us each one and they are awesome. So I was curious, do you embrace

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Pomodoro?

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Do you embrace those timers?

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I've never heard of this, but now I'm like over here wanting to Google this and see what this is

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about.

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Well, here's how, Nate. So it's for time blocking. It's all about time blocking. And the gal that we

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had on, she does a lot of contract work. And so she has multiple timers, she said, which that's a

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little much for me. That might be hard for me, but yeah. So it's this, you basically have these

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different preset amounts of time and you can change it to like 47 minutes or whatever. And all you do

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is you hit the button and you flip it. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you

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flip it to whatever time you want the timer to be. So the 45 minutes is up. It's 45 minutes. And

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that helps you time block.

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I was just going to say my favorite use case so far is I have this problem of like, I'll start a

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task that I really enjoy doing and I won't chunk it. And then I only have crap tasks to do after.

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And it's hard to find motivation to do all of them. So I use this a lot for like, okay, I'm

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giving myself 15 minutes to do this. And then I have to move back onto this boring task and then

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I'll come back. And it's so easy because whatever number is up on your desk is what the timer gets

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set to.

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And then it flashes or vibrates at you when it's over.

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Okay, so I know exactly what I'm adding to my Amazon cart next.

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This is amazing.

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I've already ordered two more. So I'm going to have three total in a matter of a week. So

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I feel you.

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One at the home office, one at the office here. Yep.

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Yep.

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This is incredible.

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All right. Well, I want to talk to you about, you mentioned how you've like grown throughout

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your time at Hibbett. You've been there

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eight years.

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It looked like moving from a specialist to director. And I feel like most people,

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especially in e-comm have to jump ship every two years or so in order to really level up and keep

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moving, moving through in their career. So what's your secret to climbing the ladder within one

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house without hitting that ceiling?

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Yeah, so that's a very good question. It's twofold for me. One is leadership. Like I've been really

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blessed with great leadership at Hibbett.

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I've been really blessed with great leadership at Hibbett who encourages me learning more and

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growing. And that has been awesome. And that's directly from our VP from previous SVPs we've had

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from our CEO. They're all just really encouraging about that. But the main secret is realizing that

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the ceiling is up to you. Like I've always viewed myself as an entrepreneur. And that's been very

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helpful because with that ceiling, I've been able to do a lot of things. And I've been able to do a lot of

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things. And I've been able to do a lot of things. And I've been able to do a lot of things. And I've

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because with that like comes three main focuses for me. Okay, so one is always being a student, and

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then building relationships and approaching things with a yes and mindset. So that's really what's

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helped me a lot. It's important because if you stop learning, you stop leading. And so that's a

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good mindset to have. And then going back to like the building relationships part, you can't climb

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the ladder alone. It is not a siloed thing.

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So I've spent the past eight years building relationships with every department we have.

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And that has been fundamental in me growing because every department is supportive of that.

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And that's been great for me. And then finally, like I said about the yes and mentality, it is so

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important to jump into things to learn like having the well, it's not my area mentality hurts you and

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blocks you from growing. And so I've been able to do a lot of things. And I've been able to do a lot of

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things, and I've been able to do a lot of things. And I think that's really important. And I think

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that's really important. And I think that's really important. And I think that's really important.

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So what I've found is just taking the initiative to shadow people and seeing a gap and offering your

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assistance goes a long way. And that goes back to learning to like, it just helps you learn more

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areas.

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Absolutely. I love that.

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I feel like we try to embrace a lot of that too, like always keeping a project on your desk. So

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there's something you're in the weeds on continuing to learn helping the team. And similarly, like

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when we launch new tools, specifically, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know,

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like di and i we want to know how every setting every button works before we really even roll it

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out to the team because we want to make sure we can answer those questions and really help adoption

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and and understand like how high can we go with this you know so that that was awesome yeah no

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super important it sounds like you have a great culture at hibbit too that it's not just okay

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yeah you can take that on too it's you can you can take that on holy cow look at how much she's

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doing and and she should probably be moving up and leveling up and that's awesome so you mentioned

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a lot of different things in your intro that you manage crm loyalty email mobile paid media i'm

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sure i missed something in there uh that's a lot of plates to keep spinning so does your brain ever

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actually turn off or are you constantly like segmenting your real life into acquisition

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and retention phases so anybody that knows me um can

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truly tell you my brain never stops ever um i feel like yes it is constantly going like it's

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terrible guys um but yeah so even like on a weekend if i'm like sitting there and i see a

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push notification on my phone immediately i'm like oh wait um that's really cool i love that

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like let me screenshot that and send that as inspiration to my team or yeah yeah

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or like i'll get an email or a push and i'm like why did they do that that's a churn risk like you

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should not have sent that to me right now like it's it's a whole thing sometimes my husband will

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look over at me and be like can you stop for two seconds just like stop sounds familiar my favorite

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is getting email pitches that still have the square brackets of insert name here i'm like oh

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oh my gosh yes uh yes no no that

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that's one that always cracks me up that or like when somebody accidentally sends a push or an email

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and it still has test in the subject line like i immediately cringe yes um but really

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the the biggest thing and i'm gonna sound like such a nerd when i say this

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um but i really try to look at my world in my life as a crm program like you need a balance

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in crm of acquisition and retention and retention and retention and retention and retention and

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retention and that's what i try i sometimes fail but i try to do that um in my life too

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of looking at my world as that so like for me acquisition is work it's that constant hustle

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and and growing relationships there um and then my personal life is retention and it's recharging

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and making sure i'm keeping myself healthy um and so looking at it that way

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really helps me not spend all of my energy on one or the other

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i love that i could i could take a lesson from you there

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segmenting your own life i like it put it down yeah i'm not all that that great at it um this

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year i'm trying to be better i'm trying to be better i'm putting in more vacations this year

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i'm going to hawaii in october so trying with that whole like fun um yes that whole uh what

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is it refresh your mind um and then i'm trying to be better i'm trying to be better i'm putting

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i can relate to um being i think both die has been at fun for it will be 10 in july i am working

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on my eighth year and before this i spent just under nine years at target and one question i

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have for you kayla also being someone who's been in in or at their same place of work for several

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years how do you as a type a like something i struggle with is when a new tool comes out

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struggling to define between like a system update

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and a system burn down and like rebuild i feel like some of that comes from being at the same

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place for a while where you get used to the way things have always gotten done right so how do

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you distinguish between an update versus like a rebuild when a new tool or functionality comes

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out i think part of that is looking at your your kpis and how your program's been doing before

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so are you in a place where your your program's unhealthy and you need to just do a full rebuild

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um but if it's not then really it comes down to

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having a team with people really ultimately working on that upgrade and then maybe a project

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because the only way that we've talked about things this other day is if either of you

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have never had a rebrand earlier i think kind of picking and adjusting this part so here's

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the journey for your program we've done a big extremely good one prior to this we've

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asked some questions out of ability training online so some of you and i will be 125 to

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connect with um to help them out possibly have a similar thing in mind because we've

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been recent

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ready, then ripping something out and replacing it just will hurt you in the long run.

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Yeah. So transitioning from working with your team at ETL West, I know you spoke about bringing

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your staff along in that AI journey. What's the biggest unhinged fear you've heard from

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your team member about AI or team members? And how did you kind of talk them off that ledge?

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Yeah. So we've invested in AI pretty heavily on my team. And there were two fears. One was

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the fear of the unknown. And the second was the fear of replacement. So my team, we test

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everything, including AI. We do not launch something without any testing it.

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We've got to prove that value out. But there's a catch to a test, even with AI. And that's

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typically that the workload spikes before it drops. So that's where that kind of

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feeling comes in. And that's where the fear of replacement comes in.

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The fear of the unknown came from with my team of initially when we were testing. So

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we tested with DaVinci. That was our big AI launch. And it was a lot of work up front.

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And so they were like, is it always going to be this much work? And if it is, like,

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how do I manage this? But also we're being told after this test, it won't be that much

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work. And if it is that way, then will it take my job? Will it take my job away? So

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then they're like, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't

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know. And there comes that fear of the replacement. And so the motto that I really try to tell

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my team, and I'll suggest to any manager, director, VP, is to tell your team, AI is

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the intern, not the specialist, not the manager, not the director. The AI is the intern. So

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it is about giving AI something that's that admin work, something that's that manual day-to-day

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that allows you to change a role, to not take away a role, but to evolve and elevate a role.

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So we moved from building one or two manual emails a day to managing a library of over 60,

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sometimes over 100 creatives, where AI is choosing the segment in real time,

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and on a one-to-one basis. And so we can really have hundreds of variations of an email because of

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that.

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And that versioning is impossible for a human to do manually. So in this case, it didn't

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replace my team's jobs. It moved them to a strategy-focused position, which is going to

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help them grow in the long term. Because if you just execute all the time and you're never able

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to focus on strategy, there's limited room for growth. Using AI to free up time for other

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investments. Exactly. So DaVinci is creating these creatives for you and then determining

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dynamically which ones should be used for which audience?

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We still create the creatives. We're putting it in DaVinci, and DaVinci is selecting in real time

201
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who should receive what creative every day.

202
00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:25,640
Got it. And are they an ESP, or do they just plug into an ESP?

203
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:27,759
Plug into an ESP.

204
00:17:28,259 --> 00:17:28,620
Okay.

205
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,180
So they're owned by Movable Ink.

206
00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:34,500
Okay. Okay. This makes more sense now.

207
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:37,820
Yes. They're part of Movable Ink. So Movable Ink has...

208
00:17:37,940 --> 00:17:45,000
One is their studio where you're making product recommendations or personalized aspects. And

209
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:51,059
then DaVinci is their AI tool that's one-to-one. So it's not just picking the segments, but it's

210
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also doing subject line generation. And it's doing frequency modeling too. So it really has taken our

211
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segmentation away, to be honest. We don't really even segment anymore because it's looking at

212
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everything on a one-to-one basis. So it's not just picking the segments, but it's also doing

213
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frequency modeling too. So it's not just picking the segments, but it's looking at everything on a one-to-one basis.

214
00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:09,080
Very cool.

215
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:16,980
Di and I just got back from ETL. A lot of what we felt like we saw, like the new trendy thing be, is like the Monday Report

216
00:18:16,980 --> 00:18:17,340
rapper.

217
00:18:18,580 --> 00:18:19,059
Yes.

218
00:18:20,660 --> 00:18:27,460
From your perspective, are you seeing like actual agency anywhere, or what do you see that's exciting?

219
00:18:28,980 --> 00:18:37,920
Yeah. Really, I think it depends on what your area, what area you're focusing on is. I mean, we do use, like,

220
00:18:37,940 --> 00:18:41,460
it was literally no prize money books. So we really like just yeah, no prize money books, because we want to be able to do some of the Monday morning wrap-up type things.

221
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So a lot of our vendors have AI naturally in them, and we've created agents that just do our, kind of do our reporting analysis for us.

222
00:18:52,340 --> 00:19:04,279
But what's most exciting for me is more of the personalization stuff in here too, and the action items too. So taking that report, once you look at it, you know, that you just saw it, it before, or you see it right after you did the些 s that it wants to beması, or it takes that month already to no longer be sandy.

223
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taking that report one step further.

224
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,480
So there are some AIs out there that's just like,

225
00:19:12,619 --> 00:19:14,960
hey, here are your KPIs, here's how your campaign's done.

226
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,839
But we've worked with like Zeta, for instance,

227
00:19:19,039 --> 00:19:23,240
they have an agentic AI and it's been really cool

228
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,099
because their new version

229
00:19:25,099 --> 00:19:27,559
actually spits out insights about it.

230
00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:29,559
So it's not just, here's how it did,

231
00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:33,660
but it's, here's how your emails did, here are your gaps,

232
00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:36,279
here are your opportunities for next week.

233
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:42,400
And based on like how traffic did this time last year

234
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,920
versus last week, like it's done all,

235
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,700
it does this full analysis that honestly

236
00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:51,019
would take a lot of brain power on our end to do.

237
00:19:52,380 --> 00:19:53,940
That is really cool.

238
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:55,820
I'm excited for when it can be more like

239
00:19:55,820 --> 00:19:57,680
our conversations with chat GPT.

240
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,480
It sounds like we're, at least from the booths we saw eTail,

241
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:02,420
it sounds like we're getting there

242
00:20:02,420 --> 00:20:03,420
with like audience selection

243
00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:03,640
and stuff like that.

244
00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:03,900
It sounds like we're getting there with like audience selection

245
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:03,920
and stuff like that.

246
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:04,560
Potentially.

247
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:05,759
Yes.

248
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,620
And not everybody's where it seems Zeta is.

249
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:14,040
Uh, it definitely is a lot more advanced than most of the other vendors that I've

250
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:14,580
talked to.

251
00:20:16,620 --> 00:20:18,700
Most of what we saw was just analytics.

252
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:20,900
Here's how your campaigns did.

253
00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:21,900
It's like, okay, yeah, that's cool.

254
00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:22,840
And that saves us time.

255
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,160
But yeah, giving the insights is the key there.

256
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,040
That's exactly it.

257
00:20:29,980 --> 00:20:33,600
So I'm on the customer advisory board for attentive, but since you're

258
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:39,060
on the advisory board for movable Inc, I'm curious kind of how they run their advisory boards.

259
00:20:39,060 --> 00:20:40,100
And is it a lot of them?

260
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:42,980
Just do they give you like, here's what we're planning?

261
00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:44,060
What do you think of it?

262
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:49,440
Or do they do a lot more of it and input coming from you where it's something where you're just like,

263
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,600
this is something we need and it hasn't been built yet.

264
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,820
How does that, how does that work?

265
00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:57,600
And, and what, what value do you find coming out of those?

266
00:20:58,140 --> 00:20:58,440
Yeah.

267
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,260
So I've been on many cabs in the past.

268
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,580
Um, but two of my favorites.

269
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,720
Have been, um, movable link is in Zeta.

270
00:21:07,020 --> 00:21:14,720
They're both very similar in the way that their caps are set up, which is, it's kind of like a two part thing.

271
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:18,380
So yeah, it's, they're bringing stuff to us.

272
00:21:18,380 --> 00:21:21,340
They're showing us their roadmap, like quarter by quarter.

273
00:21:21,340 --> 00:21:24,960
This is what is available for beta.

274
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:31,540
This is what's coming, um, down the road, but it's a true real strategic partnership.

275
00:21:32,420 --> 00:21:33,480
So, um,

276
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:41,000
movable link and Zeta, like I said, they bring those North star innovations, but then they're asking, Hey, like, what do you guys want to see?

277
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,180
Like, what are we missing?

278
00:21:42,780 --> 00:22:01,660
Um, and Zeta, yes, the feedback loop Zeta even takes it one step further and they have like boards up or sometimes they'll give us big sticky notes and they're like, write down your suggestions and they take it and movable link does the same thing.

279
00:22:01,660 --> 00:22:03,180
But it's, um, a lot.

280
00:22:03,180 --> 00:22:19,640
Some of it's digital or just conversation and they've got somebody over there taking notes and the two of them are really good about like the next quarterly meeting we have, we'll see stuff that we talked about in that cab on the roadmap.

281
00:22:20,220 --> 00:22:30,480
So you're, you're actually seeing it start to come to life, not just what they've said they want to do, but what we're saying we won't, we'll be on the roadmap.

282
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,320
And that's so valuable to me.

283
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:33,160
Amazing that they're turning it around.

284
00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:34,680
That fast for you too.

285
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,600
That's cool.

286
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,299
Yeah.

287
00:22:37,299 --> 00:22:43,019
So let's shift maybe now and talk about more of the, uh, retention side of things.

288
00:22:43,019 --> 00:22:45,600
Loyalty CRM.

289
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:55,640
I'm curious since you lead Hibbit rewards in a world where like everybody has 50 apps and a hundred loyalty points here and there, nobody really remembers exactly what they have sometimes.

290
00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:02,220
Even how do you make a customer actually feel something for the brand or like, is the loyalty.

291
00:23:02,220 --> 00:23:05,519
Just math or, or is it psychology?

292
00:23:05,519 --> 00:23:08,819
Oh, I love that question.

293
00:23:08,819 --> 00:23:10,319
Math or psychology?

294
00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:12,319
Um, I, I love both.

295
00:23:12,319 --> 00:23:16,019
So loyalty, it's truly both.

296
00:23:16,019 --> 00:23:19,019
I mean, you, you've got the math behind it.

297
00:23:19,019 --> 00:23:25,600
You it's math for the customer, um, and for you, but it drives an affinity.

298
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,600
That is the psychology.

299
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,700
So it really is starts with that unified North star.

300
00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:32,200
True.

301
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:38,200
Truthfully and, and figuring out where, what do you want for your customer?

302
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,220
What do you want for, what do you want for your brand?

303
00:23:42,220 --> 00:23:50,960
And then taking that one step further and building out those loyalty campaigns to show the customer.

304
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,120
That it's not just about money for us.

305
00:23:54,120 --> 00:24:01,840
I mean, at the end of the day, every, every retailer is about the money, but it's also, it's gotta be about.

306
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:02,200
Yeah.

307
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,960
It's, it's gotta be about the customer, um, as well.

308
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:16,200
So it's not just about giving them the discount or giving them that award for points for purchases, but it's about that life, that life cycle journey.

309
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:23,200
Um, especially in our world, sneaker heads are so important for, um, Hibbit in our industry.

310
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:28,200
Um, that's what is kind of that, that culture for us.

311
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,200
So it's about identifying where in the lifestyle cycle.

312
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:38,200
Journey, we can show them we're anticipating what they need before they know it.

313
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,200
So, Hey, you typically buy this thing, this type of shoe.

314
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,200
So we know that you like these Jordan threes.

315
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:57,200
So the next time a Jordan three or another Jordan of a similar colorway drops, we're going to show you before you even know it's coming out.

316
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,200
And so that's important.

317
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,200
So it's not just about that.

318
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,200
That matter.

319
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:15,200
And that discount, but it's about truly anticipating their needs and letting them know that, oh, this is where I need to go to stay relevant within my culture.

320
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,200
Got it.

321
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,200
I think that last piece is kind of the key, right?

322
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:25,200
So that's more of the emotional connection to the brand versus just like feeling seen and personalized.

323
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,200
Yep.

324
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,200
Exactly.

325
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,200
It's all about the culture, that connection with the customer.

326
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:45,200
When it comes to those customer journeys, I guess, is there any type of metric that you feel like a lot of people in the industry focus on, but you personally think is a little bit more of a distraction or even the inverse of that?

327
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,200
Is there a boring stat or something you don't think a lot of people look at that you check every day?

328
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,200
Yes.

329
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,200
So I'm going to say something that a lot of people are going to probably feel is controversial.

330
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,200
Love it.

331
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:11,200
I hate focusing on clicks, especially in a world or especially for a retailer that has a strong brick and mortar presence.

332
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:19,200
So that's the thing of clicks are great, especially if you're an online only business.

333
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,200
But when you have a brick and mortar presence, don't over index on it.

334
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,200
And so many people do.

335
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:26,200
It's all about, well, what's your click rate?

336
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,200
What's your click to open rate?

337
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,200
Okay, that's great.

338
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:36,200
But you've got to balance that with who's going in store and shopping.

339
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:43,200
And stores are a huge percentage of our of just our world for Hibbit.

340
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,200
We have over a thousand stores.

341
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,200
So we we've got a great digital presence.

342
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,200
We have two websites, two apps.

343
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,200
So we've got to focus on that.

344
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,200
But you can't lose track of the.

345
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,200
You can't lose track of the stores either.

346
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:06,200
So for me, it's all about data and being able to use loyalty to become the hero for this.

347
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:18,200
Because you've got to have a loyalty program to track if customers receive a campaign and then shop in store because your click rate might be down online.

348
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,200
But they might have went and bought all their product in store.

349
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,200
So it's all about not over indexing on those.

350
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,200
In my opinion.

351
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,200
Now, many people, many people may hate that.

352
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,200
I just said that.

353
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,200
But that's just my opinion.

354
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:40,200
But for the boring stuff that you mentioned, I keep a constant eye on one of the most boring facts.

355
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,200
And that is unsubscribed and opt out rates.

356
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,200
It is such an undervalued metric, in my opinion.

357
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,200
It's the ultimate feedback loop.

358
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,200
It tells you when you've crossed that line from helpful.

359
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,200
To need to pivot.

360
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,200
Yep.

361
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,200
I love that.

362
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,200
I think I agree with you on the click rate.

363
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,200
I've never put much stock in it.

364
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,200
I know people maybe maybe they all disagree.

365
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,200
Maybe secretly.

366
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,200
We actually all agree.

367
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,200
But the vendors just don't get it.

368
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,200
I don't know.

369
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,200
But I'm like, click rate.

370
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,200
Cool.

371
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,200
Like, who's actually converting?

372
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,200
Like, I could get them to open if I'm not driving them to the right place or I'm not.

373
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,200
Maybe I didn't actually hit them with the right thing.

374
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,200
So they're not converting or the pricing was off or they're not converting.

375
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,200
Or the pricing was off or the promotion was off.

376
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,200
Like, there's too much other information that gets lost between click and convert.

377
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,200
So, yeah.

378
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:30,200
Exactly.

379
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,200
It's all about conversion, whether they're converting online or in store.

380
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,200
Like, you've got to have the data behind it, the analysis behind it.

381
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:45,200
But I've I just get I get so many questions sometimes from vendors or from my own team of like, oh, this click rate was down.

382
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,200
I'm like, OK, but can we look at the conversion rate?

383
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,200
Because I care more about that.

384
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,200
Like, what are they shopping?

385
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,200
Yeah.

386
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,200
And I mean, it's going to depend, too, on how large your audience is on that click rate and how targeted you are, too.

387
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,200
Exactly.

388
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,200
I was just going to say, it's got to be interesting, like layering in the whole in-store data as well.

389
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,200
Like, obviously, I've known that's a thing.

390
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,200
Right. But Di and I have spent most of our time in an e-comm.

391
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,200
So we're online only.

392
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,200
We dabbled with like a few pop up shops and I would say lightly dabbled.

393
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,200
But all of our stuff is online where data is a lot more, you know, together.

394
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,200
And available to us.

395
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,200
I'm curious.

396
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,200
Like, that has to be interesting.

397
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,200
Yeah.

398
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:32,200
We have a really, really in-depth analytics program and it comes from our loyalty program, really.

399
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,200
That's the whole value of loyalty.

400
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,200
Without loyalty, you don't have the data you need to know about the customer.

401
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:48,200
So because we have such a strong loyalty program, we're able to to get some of that analysis of, hey, we sent them this campaign and they went and shopped within a certain amount of days.

402
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,200
So, I mean, it's it's an assumption, too.

403
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,200
I mean, you know, it's not like digital where it's a direct.

404
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,200
They've clicked.

405
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,200
They bought within.

406
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,200
And I can track it.

407
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,200
Yes, it's it's an assumption.

408
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:09,200
But it it's a it's a detailed analytical assumption.

409
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,200
Sure.

410
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,200
So you talk with a lot of that.

411
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,200
You have a lot of vendor partnerships, I would say.

412
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,200
Right.

413
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:17,200
It takes a village.

414
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:18,200
Yeah.

415
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,200
And across all of your channel efforts.

416
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,200
So paid email, mobile in stores.

417
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,200
How do you keep the brand voice from getting away from you getting unhinged?

418
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,200
Right.

419
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:36,200
When you have so many different vendor platforms and ways for customers to shop?

420
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,200
Yes.

421
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:47,200
So honestly, really, that comes down to just talking and having that collaboration across team.

422
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,200
Across the teams, like my specific teams.

423
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,200
And they talk every day, like all day.

424
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,200
We have a group teams chat where they're talking.

425
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,200
They have side teams chats.

426
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,200
They're brainstorming together, even though they're on they're managing different channels.

427
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:15,200
And that's so important to keep that brand voice, because if they start getting siloed, all of a sudden we're talking to.

428
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,200
We're having different brands across push and email and paid.

429
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:25,200
So that cross collaboration and encouraging that is key.

430
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:31,200
I'm lucky to have an amazing and very amazing team who doesn't look at it as competition.

431
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,200
They look at just collaboration.

432
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:41,200
But also, I know I've said this this term a million times, but it's about that unified North Star.

433
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,200
I mean, it really is.

434
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,200
Just knowing what is your brand.

435
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,200
Knowing what is your goal.

436
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,200
Having that strategy.

437
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,200
And knowing who your customer is, too.

438
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,200
We emphasize a lot of this is our target consumer.

439
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,200
And this is our target purchaser.

440
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,200
Sometimes that's not the same thing.

441
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:08,200
You know, I mean, sometimes during back to school, you're marketing for back to school and for that kid.

442
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,200
But your purchaser is mom or dad.

443
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,200
And, you know, so you've got to know.

444
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,200
Right.

445
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:25,200
You've got to know who you're talking to at certain times of the year and making sure that you're talking to the same person across the different the different platforms.

446
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,200
So I'm curious real quick, Kayla.

447
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,200
That all makes total sense.

448
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,200
Did that change or did it get more complicated as you guys started embracing more AI?

449
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:42,200
I know earlier you were talking about your DaVinci is helping with subject line creation or some of the content in there.

450
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,200
And how do you?

451
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:51,200
So walk me through how you got your team and everyone to really pay attention to make sure that like brand voice drift isn't happening as you guys embrace more AI.

452
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,200
So the funny thing is it is that it helped a lot.

453
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,200
Really?

454
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,200
Okay.

455
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,200
Yes.

456
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:07,200
Despite the fact that we have like the subject line generation, we're putting the we're putting the parameters around it.

457
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,200
So it's still talking with our brand in mind and using our brand voice.

458
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:23,200
But what we're doing with AI, especially with DaVinci, is we're able to dive into some metrics that we never had before.

459
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,200
Like what type of category does the customer want?

460
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,200
Like what's driving the purchases?

461
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,200
Is it, you know, this specific brand or is it apparel?

462
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:36,200
Is it footwear?

463
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,200
Like what is the supply versus demand?

464
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:46,200
Of like what amount of creative do we have in the library versus what is the customer actually responding to?

465
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,200
And then we're taking that and using it across other channels, too.

466
00:33:51,200 --> 00:34:00,200
So it's like, hey, DaVinci is showing an email that this we've got way too many of this type of campaign, but we need more of this type of campaign.

467
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,200
So then in push or on social, they're like, okay, let's do more of this, too.

468
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,199
So it's really helping more than hurting.

469
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:09,199
That's great.

470
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:10,199
That's great to hear.

471
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:14,199
And I was not expecting that, to be honest.

472
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:16,199
It depends on how you use it.

473
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:17,199
I will say that.

474
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:18,199
Yeah.

475
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:22,199
I can see use cases where it probably would cause some issues.

476
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:32,199
But again, it's all about that cross collaboration and making sure everybody's on board and everybody sees the value in it.

477
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:33,199
Yep, 100%.

478
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:36,199
Glad I could surprise you, Nate.

479
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,199
Yeah, that was fun.

480
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:48,199
I was just going to say, I think we curated some surprise, very easy rapid fire questions.

481
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:49,199
Type A lightning round.

482
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:51,199
For just a couple of minutes if you're down.

483
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,199
Let's do it.

484
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,199
Type A lightning round.

485
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:56,199
I like that.

486
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:57,199
Sure.

487
00:34:57,199 --> 00:34:58,199
Okay, Kayla, ready?

488
00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:00,199
Ready to take the first one?

489
00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:05,199
Inbox zero or inbox 10,000, which do you subscribe to?

490
00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:06,199
Inbox 10,000.

491
00:35:06,199 --> 00:35:07,199
Same.

492
00:35:07,199 --> 00:35:08,199
Same.

493
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:11,199
I have an inbox zero hat and it's just a dream.

494
00:35:11,199 --> 00:35:13,199
Okay.

495
00:35:13,199 --> 00:35:17,199
Sneaker style, fresh out of the box or weathered?

496
00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:19,199
Fresh out of the box.

497
00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:20,199
Very type A.

498
00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:21,199
Okay.

499
00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:25,199
What's funny is I was not a sneaker person before Hibbit.

500
00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:26,199
I did not.

501
00:35:26,199 --> 00:35:28,199
I owned like one pair of sneakers.

502
00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:32,199
And now I've got, I'm ashamed to say how many I have.

503
00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:33,199
We're just going to say that.

504
00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:35,199
We can keep that a secret.

505
00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:36,199
Okay.

506
00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:42,199
What's the most type A thing in your morning routine?

507
00:35:42,199 --> 00:35:47,199
Oh, that's a, oh, that's a hard one.

508
00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:58,199
You know, I think it would be that when I get up, the very first thing I do is check my Outlook inbox.

509
00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:02,199
For note taking, are you physical or digital?

510
00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:03,199
Both.

511
00:36:03,199 --> 00:36:04,199
Both.

512
00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:05,199
It depends.

513
00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:06,199
It really depends.

514
00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:14,199
So like some of like my leadership meetings or my touch bases, I'm a digital person because

515
00:36:14,199 --> 00:36:18,199
I like to share that back with my team and it's just easier to copy and paste.

516
00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:24,199
But when it comes to projects, I like to write it down and I keep a different notebook for

517
00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:25,199
each type of project.

518
00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:26,199
That sounds right.

519
00:36:26,199 --> 00:36:27,199
Yes.

520
00:36:27,199 --> 00:36:28,199
I always.

521
00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:29,199
All right.

522
00:36:29,199 --> 00:36:34,199
Well, I think we'll, we'll stop putting you under the gun.

523
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,200
Putting you under the gun with our lightning round questions.

524
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,200
Thanks for entertaining that.

525
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:47,200
So I don't, I don't, y'all don't make me spill any more ways that I'm super type A embarrassingly.

526
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:48,200
That's okay.

527
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:49,200
We relate for sure.

528
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:50,200
Okay.

529
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:55,200
Well, Kayla, thank you so much for pulling back the curtain today.

530
00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:01,200
It's rare to find a leader who can balance the cold hard logic of AI and the actual human heartbeat of the team.

531
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,200
And you're doing it at scale.

532
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,200
Most people only dream of that.

533
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:11,200
So for everyone listening, if you want to see what a director level looks like when

534
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:17,200
it's backed by eight years of deep rooted expertise, make sure you go follow Kayla Brown

535
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,200
on LinkedIn.

536
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,200
Check out the innovation that's happening over at Hibbit.

537
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,200
And if you're at what conference was it?

538
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,200
CRMC in June.

539
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,200
CRMC in June.

540
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:32,200
Make sure that you, you ask her about that loyalty program because she is truly setting

541
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,200
the pace for what lifestyle marketing should look like in 2026.

542
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,200
Thanks again, Kayla.

543
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,200
Thank you, Di and Nate.

544
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:41,200
Thanks so much, Kayla.

545
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,200
This was so fun.

546
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,200
All right, guys, we have some other, some other.

547
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,200
All right, guys, we have some other great interviews coming up.

548
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,200
Really hope that you join us for those.

549
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,200
But until then, stay type A.

550
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,200
And a little unhinged.

551
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:09,200
Thanks for listening to Type A Unhinged.

552
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,200
Now it's time to get to work.

553
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,200
Make sure to hit subscribe so you never miss a system update.

554
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:12,200
Okay.

555
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:13,200
Get the rice out of my teeth first.

556
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,200
I was eating right before.

557
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,200
Okay.

558
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,200
Bye.

559
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:17,200
Bye.

560
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,200
Bye.

561
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:19,200
Bye.

562
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,200
Bye.

563
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:21,200
Bye.

564
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,200
Bye.

565
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:23,200
Bye.

566
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:24,200
Bye.

567
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:25,200
Bye.

568
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,200
Bye.

569
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:27,200
Bye.

570
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:28,200
Bye.

571
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,200
Bye.

572
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,200
Bye.

573
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:31,200
Bye.

574
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,200
Bye.